Wicked World, with Sonja Wekema

In this episode, Sonja Wekema shares insights from her book 'Leading in a Wicked World' and discusses her experience of navigating chaos, self-awareness, and leadership in turbulent times. She reflects on personal chaos, the importance of coming together, and how to foster resilience and understanding in a complex world.

Topics

• What makes a world 'wicked' and how to navigate it
• The importance of self-awareness and understanding personal scripts
• The role of coming together and community in turbulent times
• Lessons from personal experiences with chaos and loss
• Strategies for building resilience and self-worth
• The impact of culture on leadership and vulnerability
• The significance of asking questions and embracing different perspectives
• The influence of technology, fake news, and AI on perception and trust
• Parenting and passing on values in a digital age
• The importance of asking deep questions to understand oneself and others

Chapters
00:00 Introduction: Other Perspectives
02:48 Navigating the Chaos of the Book Launch
05:54 The Importance of Connection in a Wicked World
08:21 Getting help when hitting walls
11:28 Self-Reflection and Personal Scripts
16:22 Building Resilience and Self-Worth
19:06 Embracing Different Perspectives to Humanize
20:43 Parenting in a Complex World

Keywords

Wicked World, Leadership, Self-Worth, Chaos, Resilience, Personal Development, Sonja Wekema

Guest Contact Details:
For more information about Sonja’s work, speaker services and books, see https://sonjawekema.com/ 

Thanks to Jacopo Lazzaretti for the intro/outro music:  https://jacopolazzaretti.bandcamp.com/album/secret-love

For all contact details (including our Associates) and useful self-worth resources, see www.SelfWorthAcademy.com

Transcript

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John Niland (00:00)

Welcome to Self-Worth in Times of Chaos. My guest today is Sonja Wekema. And Sonja has written a fascinating book called Leading in a Wicked World, which is actually what prompted me to invite her on to this podcast. I first met Sonja in Germany on a sales training or business development course, I forget exactly what, that we were both involved in giving oof over a decade ago. great to have you back. Welcome, Sonja.

Sonja Wekema (00:27)

Yeah, thank you for having me. And I remember vividly that we were sitting there and you were talking about sales, but you were also talking about a lot of different other things. And I think that was the moment that you launched your book almost. You finished your manuscript for the Self-Worth Safari. So quite intriguing.

John Niland (00:47)

I've mentioned your book. ⁓ just tell us a little bit more about what else you do before we get on to chaos.

Sonja Wekema (00:52)

Yeah. Yeah. So the book that was one of these projects that ⁓ just came my way during the COVID period. but around ten years ago I resigned from a corporate job that I was in for about ten years. And before that I also had a corporate job, but then more a management consultancy job for six years. So almost ten years I'm self-employed by now, and I founded my organization called The Other Perspective.

And that was primarily to ⁓ yeah, to challenge myself in my thinking, like what patterns am I part of and what what behaviour do I show? And maybe there is a different perspective on how I behave or think. And yeah, I also found with clients that it might sometimes be worthwhile to offer them a different perspective.

So whenever I, for instance, just use some of the branding of of my business, people are they always tell me like it really helps because it triggers me to think in different ways. So ⁓ that's what I do. And and what I do with it is I work as an organization development consultant, but also as an executive and team coach. ⁓ so yeah, my primary clients they work ⁓ mainly in the international sector.

John Niland (01:56)

Hmm.

Sonja Wekema (02:12)

corporates, but also more and more ⁓ yeah, social impact organizations. And also since a few years I'm working again for the public sector, so for my own municipality, to also make sure that yeah, the the world that I'm living in really close by and my children, that it is a safe environment. So I'm working with the one of the the departments of safety.

And safety is the red thread, I think, across ⁓ what I'm doing anyway.

John Niland (02:44)

Hmm. Well, quite a lot of perspectives there we could dive into. now we both have an interest in chaos and we both have an interest in Wicked World, ⁓ which is ⁓ why we ⁓ ended up talking today. and I know you've had some of your own personal experience with that, indeed around the launch of your book. shall we start with that?

Sonja Wekema (02:48)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I think yeah, I I mentioned it also before, and maybe people who follow me on LinkedIn they probably have seen something about this. So when I wrote this book, and I wrote it together with Matthias Schramm, so together we ⁓ did the Masters of Executive Coaching at Ashridge in London. ⁓ in March twenty twenty we met and yeah, you know what happened then, so everything was closed and at some point.

We only had Zoom to work with, so ⁓ with Matthias, I I think I spoke with him like every other week on on on Zoom just to hear what was happening and how he was balancing like work life and personal life with children. And so we wrote this book and it took quite some time. But and also we at some point said, Okay, do we really need to create this book or shall we just drop it? and

That conversation only happened two years after we met. So it it yeah, it was it just developed and it evolved. And when we launched this book, that was in beginning of 2024. ⁓ my father was already ill for quite some time, for fifteen years or something. And in that period, we were looking for a moment to launch the book and we wanted to launch it in a castle. So we found one in the Netherlands. Also at a moment that Matthias could join us from Germany.

And we found a day, and that day was the nineteenth of September. And during that week my father ⁓ was put in hospital and that was his last week that he lived with us. So at some point I needed to also say to all these people that were helping us. So we had a singer, we had a pianist, we had a keynote speaker, we had people for the panel, we had sixty guests. We look

All this work, we even got the the castle for free because the director of the castle he believed in this book and in our idea of just bringing a lot of people from different bubbles together to talk about dilemmas. And so I thought, I need to cancel this. But yeah, that was a no brainer. So I did and I said to everyone, like, Okay, it's not gonna happen. And then my brother said to me, like, there's one thing you can cancel.

The other thing is you can postpone and I never even thought about that. So at some point I asked the castle, can we please come like in November or something when Matthias was also available? So we did that launch there. ⁓ and it was already half a year after the book was was launched in in the in the bookstores. But it was also like we were celebrating life. We were celebrating that we had so many people that were dear to us.

Coming to this castle, yeah, and with the music, we even created a video on to make people feel how wicked this world is. So we had like footage that we yeah got together from like melting ⁓ ice in the pole area, from wars, from technical things that are happening, ⁓ like really to make people feel a bit scared and

Yeah, unease was also developed, I think, with a lot of people. And then in this film, we at some point moved to yeah, to to the pixies, to Where is my mind? Probably you know that song. And our musicians took over, and then people felt calm again, and then we asked them to talk about hey, what this did this video with all this

Chaos and with all that wickedness, what did it do to you? Not just in your brain, but also in your body. And yeah, I think it bonded people so quickly, even people that had never met each other before. Yeah, this was I don't know, it was such a wonderful thing. So ⁓ yeah, looking back at that, helping people make sense and also feel that they are not alone in this wicked world.

That that was really, really nice.

John Niland (07:18)

Wow. Well, particularly so given that the wicked world came to visit you even while you were launching it, which is you know, really

Sonja Wekema (07:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

also in that period, like my father, he was still quite he was still there, like mentally, you know. So we saw him drifting off in in the hospital. But every every moment almost that I gave them a call, because he was quite far away, about three hours drive from where I live here in The Hague, the doctors and the nurses they kept telling me

What is this thing that you have going on in on Thursday the nineteenth? And I said, Yeah, yeah, that's the book launch. Your father keeps talking about this. So and then also in November, at some point at the end, we had champagne for everyone and we raised the glass also to my father and to celebrate his life, but also to celebrate life of everyone around. So that was quite special and yeah, it all came together.

John Niland (08:21)

So the coming together is something that runs right through everything you've said there. Why is the coming together so important in the wicked world?

Sonja Wekema (08:34)

Yeah, so one of the things and I've been in that situation myself as well. I I was brought up by by parents from the northern part of the Netherlands. And people who know the Netherlands, they know you only need three words and that's enough. Like that's what happens here. and yeah, I think my biography is also related to yeah, people, my grandparents and their parents, they were farmers, they were

entrepreneurs but then small ones, you know, always working hard, always maybe having five jobs ⁓ yeah at once to make sure that their families had a living. And that also meant that it was always working hard, always thinking and being creative from that point of view. But having words to talk about emotions, to sitting with yourself, to yeah, also empathizing with others.

Of course that happened because that was still there were villages and people were looking after each other and they were working with nature all the time. So yeah, they were always outdoors with animals. So all these things, yeah, are also still in my biography, in my DNA. So and the the working together, I think when I was a child I always thought, ⁓ I can do that all by myself and I need to just

get to to university all by myself. Asking for help, that was quite hard and I never really learned how to do this. But at some point you hit a wall and I hit many walls in my life also because I'm really curious. So then you will end up hitting walls, ⁓ I think more often than maybe people who do the same thing every day. And there's no right or wrong in this, but it's just what I notice as well.

And sometimes you cannot just do it by yourself. So then you need people around you, people you can trust, people who understand where you come from. And I think the most difficult thing for me has always been to really also first ask for help and then accept that some people want to help you. And I think this year I'm turning fifty. So I think I learned a bit like

⁓ over the the past few years, but I probably will need that a bit more when I grow older.

John Niland (10:58)

You've mentioned the cultural component here and I I have worked in Holland and I do know that work culture and indeed country culture that you've described, which is extremely hardworking and hyper independent So actually being able to ask for help, even being able to admit that I cannot do this on my own, wow, that is a big thing when you come from that

What else is in in the leading from a wicked world stable?

Sonja Wekema (11:28)

Yeah. Yeah. So in in the book what we discuss and of course the book is is reflecting how I and how my also my network partners work with organizations, with people, with ourselves. So leading in a wicked world is ⁓ divided in five chapters. And the first chapter is all about what is it a wicked world? And I think a lot of people know about VUCA and BANI is also one of those ⁓

But what we call wicked is if you think you know what you're talking about, it has already changed. So whenever you think you have the answer, it's not the answer anymore. And the other element is hey, whenever you think you can do it all by yourself, you cannot. So I always my analogy is or the metaphor is like a piece of soap that is quite wet. Whenever you hold it, you think, I have it and then it's just gone.

It just flies around and then you try to catch it again and you cannot. So you need some other people to help you catch that piece of soap. and that is how we see the wicked world. And what we also say in this book is that wicked the wicked world is not something just for this moment. Like also in the past there was wickedness. So and there were changes and changes that hit communities, that hit society, like

Look at the Industrial Revolution, look at like at some point we had a phone or we had a car. And my grandfather, he turned ninety-six, and he he passed away three years ago. He always spoke about, do you remember the time that we had like a loaf of bread for no money? Yeah, in in our opinion. So he could always talk about these situations and

That there was a car and someone in the in the neighborhood had a car and they had colored television and they had this and this and this. But at the moment, I think it was in the eighties or something, we got a a computer, a personal computer, with this really ancient modem. And I I can imagine you also remember that sound that it made. And my grandfather, and looking back, he was only in his sixties, but he said, No, no, no, it's too much.

I've had enough of innovation and he of course uses a different word for that one. But he didn't want to know anything about computers. He doesn't want to know anything about mobile phones, not about iPads or whatsoever. So whenever I went to to China, I think it was in two thousand six or something, their neighbor was also quite old, their own age, she just printed off my blogs or weblogs as we called it at that moment.

To tell my my grandparents what I was doing that day in China. And of course they liked it, but nah there was no time for a computer. So but that is yeah, wicked it has always been wicked, but what we see now is it goes really quickly. We don't know anymore what we can believe. Like, hey, the truth, what is the truth? That was always a question. But now it's also with AI, everything looks real. Flooding the zone was a big thing when we

wrote this book, like hey, just overload people with fake news and then the people in power or at least who were really holding ⁓ yeah, how do you say that? The key. Yeah, they can give a lot of information to distra distract people from the main thing. So that's that's important. So that's chapter one. Chapter two is related also to what we were doing at that time. ⁓

It's around like the self, and it's called the personal script. So, and it also derives from Byrne from transactional analysis. Who are you? Who, yeah, how do you see yourself? What is your script, your personal script, and who has written that script? Are you living the life that your parents thought about for you, or maybe caretakers? Or

Do you use your own script? And can you also rewrite your script? And what we also look into is patterns in nature. Patterns like music, the heartbeat, the the link to what you hear when you ⁓ listen to music. and also the patterns that you have yourself, especially also the blind spots. So are you open for for ⁓ discovering those blind spots?

Because if you don't know who you are and how you tick and how you behave, you might become quite vulnerable. People might also manipulate you and then linking that to that first chapter, like, hey, if there's a lot of fake news, if you believe it, yeah, what will happen? So this is also about looking at yourself and understanding how you relate ⁓ to your context.

John Niland (16:22)

in all of this, so you're observing all around you ⁓ not only what's been going on in the wicked world around the time of the pandemic and since, but right up to now with everything that's happening geopolitically, with everything that's happening with AI and so on. How do you see

either your own or other people's relationship with themselves evolving in the middle of all that.

Sonja Wekema (16:45)

Yeah, well, there are different elements that I see. There there are people who have already spent quite some time in understanding themselves and not just like, hey, let me reflect for twenty weeks or something that is not really healthy. But understanding, okay, s some things I find yeah, scary or that takes me out of my comfort zone. What do I do? And what I do myself, but also what I help and coach other people on is

How do you create a context in which you feel safe and where you feel confident? And that's also related to the Self-Worth Academy that at some point ⁓ you brought me into. Like how grounded is someone? And that's also the words you gave me some of those words around self worth and making sure your roots are really deep in the soil. Because yeah.

the the the higher the level of self-worth is, I think you can also take in much more and be more resilient. But also these things, it's it's nice to say and to talk about it, but only when something happens, when you hit one of those walls, that's where you really notice like, okay, what is happening to your level of self-worth? And also even on a daily basis or maybe within a day, that might shift as well. So

What I try to do with the people I coach and with myself is to find people that I can always go to and vice versa. So I cannot do this by myself. But it also hap it it yeah, and then with Edith Eger, who just passed away. I think learning from from people like her, from Victor Frankl, and there are more of those, like what happens when you are

like in prison when you are in a situation like in their case of course it was the Holocaust. So what was the mindset that they had? And of course never any guarantee, but with your mind you can do a lot and you can train yourself and you can also visualize what might be out there if you are stuck somewhere. And that really helped me as well.

Because you can train yourself in also feeling for yourself and be compassionate about yourself. Yeah. Is that an answer to your question?

John Niland (19:15)

Hmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

And I'm linking it with what you said earlier about reaching out to others as part of that and not trying to do this on our own. ⁓ these are very much

Sonja Wekema (19:27)

Yeah. Yeah, and inviting

in different and then I'm still going to the book anyway. So in my in in the four in the fourth chapter we talk about that it is so important to embrace different perspectives and also to surround yourself and be open for other people's thoughts. Because of course, also in the political arena and some other areas, people have different opinions than you might have. And

John Niland (19:33)

Go for it.

Sonja Wekema (19:55)

It is so easy to blame others. But how about just asking questions and trying to understand why people do what they do? And also you can look in the mirror and and ask yourself those questions as well. And maybe you don't have an answer always, which is fine too.

You know? So but yeah, in this world of Instagram, everything needs to be or and TikTok and all the others, everything needs to be, yeah, perfect. But human beings are never perfect. But as long as we can do something that we can, yeah, I don't know, humanize or rehumanize organizations and and communities a bit more, that's what I really believe in. And

The only thing you can do is doing that together.

John Niland (20:48)

I know you're a parent, ⁓ what do you try to pass on to the young?

Sonja Wekema (20:54)

Well, one of the things is quite interesting. So my children are now fourteen and fifteen years old and I see a big shift, especially for the youngest. So when he was really little, I I remember asking him at some point, like, Hey, what does connection mean? And at that moment he said, Yeah, connection means that people when they speak to one another, they look each other in the eye.

And they create something, some sort of energy. I don't know exactly how he how he worded this, but he had his fingers like this locked in. He said, You really feel that you are together and you are connected. And now, of course, it's the moment of the mobile phones and everything else. So every time I I say this, hey, do you remember this? ⁓ huh. So it that's quite tough, but I think we also have a role as parents, like, yeah.

John Niland (21:42)

Uh-huh.

Sonja Wekema (21:49)

the seductions that they have to face. Like it's it's the the yeah alcohol, it's coming up at some point with the children as well, tobacco, vapes and all that stuff, but also mobile phones and also the lobby work that happens and the money that is being spent by the producers. So and I'm also part of ⁓ of the parents' council here at at at the school of one of my children. So

Whenever we have these conversations also with parents, it that's the same. Like you can blame your children, but that's unfair because it's not their fault that they are being locked in as they say themselves. They are being made addicted or addict how do you say that? Yeah, addicted to these things. And the systems behind it are quite similar. It's a lot of lobby, it's a lot of manipulation, a involved.

But in the end, we are there to protect the children and we cannot protect them all the time. So also here related to fake news and truth and what do you believe? I think what what our role is to educate them, because y we cannot be with them all the time. The only thing is that at least I hope, that they at some point think, hey, there was something in these conversations that I had with my parents, with my teachers.

with whoever, maybe there might be some truth in this and that they can make the decisions that they need to make themselves. But yeah, of course it takes time.

John Niland (23:26)

Well, it does, but it's also the hope for the future. And I'm ⁓ thinking also of you passing on the gift of asking great questions. I remember when we first met, we were seated ⁓ at dinner, I think, beside each other, and you turned to me and you said, So who are you really? Which is like a a brilliant Sonja question. and what a great application of your ⁓ other perspective.

Sonja Wekema (23:48)

Do you

also remember what you said? Because you were just doing a sales training.

John Niland (23:52)

Yeah,

I was very much in professional mode at the time. Yeah. But I think the book

Sonja Wekema (23:56)

Yeah, but you

saw much more in the room and outside of the room. Yeah, no true.

John Niland (24:01)

Other things were bubbling ⁓ in the background. Sonja, thanks for joining me today. If anybody is interested in the books, ⁓ Sonja also has a podcast, ⁓ and ⁓ any of the topics, including the parenting topic, ⁓ then links will be in the show notes. Sonja, thanks for joining me.

Sonja Wekema (24:19)

Thanks for having me. Bye.