Future of Work, with Dan Pontefract

Dan Pontefract, a Canadian leadership and culture change strategist, shares insights on navigating chaos, from his personal experience of career transitions.  We talk about the future of work, where Dan emphasises the importance of adaptability, purpose and leveraging age diversity in organisations.

Topics

• Chaos and disruption in personal and professional life
• Career transitions and the entrepreneurial journey
• The concept of age debt and experience dividend
• Strategies for an age-inclusive workplace
• The future of work and organizational culture

Chapters
00:00 Navigating Chaos: Personal and Professional Experiences
07:26 Questioning Identity
10:11 The Entrepreneurial Journey: Ups and Downs
14:15 The Future of Work is Gray: Understanding Age Debt
19:03 The Experience Dividend
22:07 Opportunities for Older Workers in a Changing Landscape

Keywords

Future of Work, Chaos Management, Career Transition, Age Diversity, Leadership, Organizational Culture, Solopreneurship, Age Debt, Experience Dividend

Guest Contact Details:
For more information about Dan’s work, speaker services and books, see https://www.danpontefract.com/ 

Thanks to Jacopo Lazzaretti for the intro/outro music:  https://jacopolazzaretti.bandcamp.com/album/secret-love

For all contact details (including our Associates) and useful self-worth resources, see www.SelfWorthAcademy.com

Transcript

John Niland (00:00)

Welcome to Self-Worth in Times of Chaos. My guest today is Dan Pontefract. Dan is a culture and leadership strategist. He's the author of six books, one of which has just been published, and it's called The Future of Work is Gray. Welcome, Dan.

Dan Pontefract (00:17)

John,

what a delight to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

John Niland (00:21)

You're not looking at all gray right now.

Dan Pontefract (00:24)

It was a choice at twenty five to shave my head so that I didn't suffer ⁓ grayness in my fifties and sixties.

John Niland (00:29)

Fantastic

choice, as you can see. ⁓ not that the ⁓ listeners can, but I did not make the same choice. so let's dive in. Let's start with the chaos, Dan, as we usually do in this series. ⁓ what's your experience?

Dan Pontefract (00:43)

⁓ Ted Hawk had this term, who is a former CEO of chaordic How do you make ⁓ order from chaos or chaordic, right? And I feel as though that that line is ⁓ very slippery these days. the order is separating far from the chaos, and I think I'd love there to be ⁓ a closing of the gap, but the chaos seems to be

⁓ mightily taking over, John. And there's a whatever genre or ⁓ age you are, it is becoming increasingly more cumbersome. And I just I'm gonna get a little bit worried, gotta be honest, John.

John Niland (01:22)

Mm. Yep, indeed. That's why this series of conversations exists. There's quite a few of us getting worried. what's your personal experience of chaos?

Dan Pontefract (01:32)

Where do we start? We've got six hours. ⁓ is there is this enough time to get through all the chaos? Well, I am a first of all, a 31-year member of the marriage fraternity to a much smarter and beautiful woman named Denise Lamarche, a French babe from McGill University where we met. ⁓ and there's been ups and downs in that relationship. Lots of chaos that we've had to deal with. We have three children, of which they are all in university, ⁓ one

John Niland (01:37)

I can edit.

Dan Pontefract (02:02)

graduated just last week and is off to Sweden to do her masters and then two in their undergrad still. So with kids comes chaos. It's just the natural ⁓ order of operations. And then Denise and I have moved we counted 17 times over our 31 years. And so you know we've been to ⁓ Europe twice. ⁓ we've moved across Canada three times. we've moved within cities ⁓ multiple times as you can imagine.

John Niland (02:10)

Mm.

Dan Pontefract (02:29)

So there comes this chaos, of course, right when you pick up and and move home, move house. So there's that. ⁓ and then if we were to just get existential, there's the work chaos. And I am ⁓ you know, I guess gracious enough to know that I've been blessed with a career that started out in academia, ⁓ that found its way into the corporate world between high tech and telecom. And then for the last eight years now.

kind of been on my own as a solopreneur with its own chaos. And so I have, I guess what I'm trying to get at, John, is between my my personal life and my professional life, whatever way you look at it, we all have to accept that we are in a liminal state. We are always between here and there. And that in between that here and there, thus the liminality, will be chaos. And it's how you, I guess, react,

Deal with it, ⁓ overcome it and not get sucked into too much of ⁓ you know, the the nefariousness that comes with some of that chaos.

John Niland (03:33)

Well, we will come to some of that, but let's stay with the the chaos experience at the moment. You're in B C, right?

Dan Pontefract (03:39)

I'm in British Columbia, yes, indeed.

John Niland (03:41)

So ⁓ your wonderful Prime Minister made a wonderful statement ⁓ a few months ago at Davos, which in many ways gave birth to this series, that we we're not living through s times of transition, we're living through times of disruption. And that's ⁓ that line has ⁓ echoed down the the the virtual hallways of this series ⁓ ever since. ⁓ and very often, as you've described, that disruption happens both personally and professionally.

Dan Pontefract (03:54)

Mm.

John Niland (04:11)

very often at the same time. And one classic instance of that that some of us have been through, and sounds like you have, is the entrepreneur's journey, which is both a personal challenge as well as a a commercial one. How did you ⁓ how did you come to be an independent?

Dan Pontefract (04:27)

⁓ not by choice, John. So

My choices in career have always been at my purview, I would say. So I chose to be an academic, I chose to move into the corporate world, I chose to switch from a large tech company called SAP to join a telecom in Canada called TELUS, but I didn't choose to leave ⁓ TELUS. that choice was given to me. Well, a choice was made for me.

Which is just an interesting point because even though in that year twenty eighteen, I was I had reread one of my books and I was sort of having my own existential chaotic crisis ⁓ of sorts, John. And I said, you know what, Dan, it's probably time to put on your big boy pants and, you know, stop hiding behind a corporate role and be more vocal, be you, ⁓ more more that you you could be, I guess.

And so however, ⁓ what I didn't anticipate was being said or told, okay, so we have essentially eliminated this function of which you have created from scratch. but would you like to would you like to sort of be would could the company be your first anchor client as you move on to a solopreneur ⁓ w world? And I'll tell you, like the

The existential crisis that I went through over those 48 hours of so what just happened? And you're saying you want me back, but in a sort of a part-time gig capacity to support something else that I had introduced to the organization? That to me, ⁓ I mean, it tested me, John, but it also ⁓ hardened me. And I learned a lot, but I am now.

So comfortable because I'm still in an anchor client ⁓ capacity relationship with that employer. ⁓ it is just kind of worked out. But I again back to my point of you never know when the chaos is gonna hit. It's how do you handle it? How do you ⁓ address both the the personal and the professional in a way that upholds your dignity that you can learn from, and maybe you can transfer some of that knowledge down the down the road.

John Niland (06:52)

Now the experience you've just described is one that I'm sure many listeners will be will be perking up their ears at because many people are having career transition thrust upon them at the moment, whether via happy coincidence with their own internal ⁓ questioning or or not. not all of them will be lucky enough to have an anchor client w when they ⁓ make that jump or make that transition. What was it like for you? What was that forty-eight hours like?

In in terms of your own thinking about yourself during that window.

Dan Pontefract (07:25)

Yeah. Well,

so here was a guy that had reread one of his books, and I'm not trying to sell books, by the way, but it's called the Purpose Effect. And I had written it in twenty fourteen, fifteen, and then released in twenty sixteen. The entire premise of the book is that there are three types of purpose. There is personal purpose, role purpose, and organizational purpose. And so I reread the book just to make sure it was still sort of apt for twenty eighteen, just a couple years later. It was kind of like the

So who am I? And I was questioning my identity in that year of 2018. Like, Dan, are are you an author that is a leadership strategist that is working with other organizations, or are you a corporate employee? And and then so I started to then have a bit of a self-doubt and self-worth question mark on my role purpose. So, i.e., if I work for an employer and only that employer, what

What what was I doing? Was I fulfilled? Was I semi fulfilled? Is there something there that I needed to be doing? And then of course, I truly believe philosophically, fundamentally, in the organization's purpose, what it did, how it served community, etc. So that wasn't a question. I was having a battle royale with myself between who am I as a human being, my personal purpose, what do I stand for, and what my role is from an income perspective. And that jostling or jousting I perhaps.

was was tantamount to me having ⁓ you know a a self-inflicted crisis. So I think in hindsight, to be honest, John, I probably would have eventually in 2019, ⁓ maybe 2020, who knows, pandemic, but I probably would have got to the point, okay, you know, Denise, my beloved, was like, Dan, it's time to move on, don't you think? So I probably got there. But to your question then, it really, it really hit me in a way that I

I almost I didn't see coming in a way that well I was I was thinking about it myself, but someone said, Well, we've decided for you. And it can be jarring, you know, from ⁓ who are you? ⁓ are do you are you worthy? What do people think? Have you lost your mojo? Are you employable? All these self-doubt. Now I'm a guy at that point who had written three books, ⁓ and had

It's done four TED Talks. It's not like I write for Forbes and HBR. It wasn't was on the Thinkers 50 ⁓ radar list. I wasn't as though I should be self-doubting, but because a decision was made that I didn't make, I was self-doubting. And John was it's definitely existential.

John Niland (10:05)

Mm.

Indeed. It often is. And thanks for illustrating it so so thoroughly and and vividly, ⁓ in the example you've just given. Now, clearly you've come through that ⁓ existential crisis. ⁓ it sounds like there was a germ of an identity already there, so you simply turned left or right or whatever direction it is, ⁓ and and stepped into it, ⁓ which of course is ⁓ is quite a thrill. What's it like ⁓ looking back on corporate life?

versus being entrepreneur. ⁓ I I d I don't mean commercially, 'cause obviously that's different in every country and in every sector, but but personally, what's that adventure been like for you?

Dan Pontefract (10:43)

Yeah.

Well, ⁓ quite frankly, ups and downs. The the downs, ⁓ just to go there first and end on a high, John, with your question. ⁓ without with with maybe perhaps sounding uncanadian, I was a really good leader. You know, and maybe that's reflected in my writing and my work these days, but I really enjoyed leading and people told me that I was a good leader. I wasn't always perfect, mind you, made mistakes, but owned them.

And I where I'm going with this is I miss to this day leading. I miss teams. I miss the collaboration. I miss when someone announces a pregnancy. I miss when someone says they've lost their father. I miss when something went awry and how can I help? I miss when someone says, I'd like to maybe move on to a different team or unit or company. Can you help? Like those leadership moments. ⁓

are missing for me. And I had teams ranging from, you know, 35 to 120 over my my years of of high tech and and telecom. So that part, you know, that that is that's a tough one. ⁓ moving to being a solopreneur. That's one of the downs. On the ups, I mean, everyone talks about flexibility, but one of the things I've really enjoyed in this solopreneurship is I kind of reckon my my ⁓

Output is like a trivial pursuit ⁓ pie sheet. You know, when you play trivial pursuit, you six pie pieces. And I've always said I don't want to be known for one thing. I want to be multifaceted, integral to different ⁓ modalities. And so obviously authorship and book writing and you know, writing articles and columns is one part of that, but not the only thing. ⁓ when I do consulting, that can be on talent, leadership, might be board work.

⁓ might be new leadership models. So like the consulting is really important to me to get in with a company and say, hey, what or an organization, say, hey, how can I help if possible? I do keynotes. I mean, that's kind of like 35 to 60 minutes. You dance on stage and you have a little bit of fun. And hopefully you leave people with something that they they can go on with. ⁓ I do a a bunch of workshops and facilitation. And so those facilitated moments, right, of three hours

couple workshops during a week, whatever it might be, it's like, we're getting somewhere. Maybe it's a series. And then, you know, one of the last ones that I I get to do, which is really rewarding as well, are retainers. So when you're when you're on a retainer with an organization and you get to spend like two, three, four years with them and get to see that growth because you're kind of like an adjunct prof inside their inside their organization. It's a thrill. So I guess that's where I've learned, John, is that

Make sure if you're gonna make the jump that you're not one dimensional.

John Niland (13:52)

Yeah, indeed. Indeed. ⁓ great at very practical advice there for anybody contemplating an entrepreneurial career. No, we didn't actually mean to start ⁓ on this topic, but you know, these these conversations go where they go. ⁓ let's come back to the book you've just published ⁓ in May, The Future of Work is Grey. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Dan Pontefract (14:15)

Most of my books, well, indeed, all my books, John, are ⁓ there's subliminal messages that are found in the in the book cover, in the book title, in the subtitle. So the book indeed is called The Future of Work is Gray, but it's that gray that is the double entangre subliminal message. And what I'm indeed trying to get at there is that there is a fog that many organizations and leaders are under.

And it is actually about what is the future of work. And so the subtitle suggests that there is an untapped value of age in the workforce. And the untapped value of age is the fog. And the fog is the fact that there are things happening in our organizations that we are willingly and sometimes unwillingly ⁓ unaware of. So

What I did with this book was that I put my passion into the pages of music. So the book is written like an album. There is side A and side B. And side A has to do with how that gray fog is really enveloped organizations and leaders writ large globally. So side A is called age debt. And we are suffering from an age debt.

And we maybe we'll get into those factors later. But the point is side A is all about all these things that even I, as a senior leader and executive running corporate culture change and leadership development, wasn't aware of and didn't even know about in my 30s and 40s. Like how terrible is that of me to not be aware of some of these age issues, whether they're young, middle aged, or old. So I'm almost it's a love letter apology as well. I should have been thinking about these things when I was a leader.

John Niland (16:08)

Let's go right there, just before we get to side B. What is age debt?

Dan Pontefract (16:12)

Yeah, ominous sounding, isn't it? It's like, gosh, what is what's what's going on here? So I I this is not a self-help book, just to be clear. What it is is is sort of a it's an awareness, it's an analysis of what our organizations are not seeing in the moment. So age debt comprises, John, of four key things. The first is what I call the sort of demographic title wave. And the best, easiest way to describe this is that the good news.

⁓ is that we're living longer. ⁓ the bad news is that we're not having as many babies. And so that is having a material difference on the organizational talent makeup of our organizations. We are running average age higher, not bad, it's just an observation. ⁓ and that means that talent is going to change the composition. Number two is what I call the experience conundrum. We are ⁓ often, sadly.

exiting older workers, maybe voluntarily, maybe involuntarily. And we haven't done a really good job of capturing the wisdom, the intellect, the tacit knowledge that they have. And we just run around wondering, someone knows something around here, right? Where's Sally? Sally was fired last week. Well, Sally used to do payroll. my gosh, how do we do payroll? So the third is what I call the pressure points of longevity. So I mentioned we're getting

Older and living longer, I should say. And that's a good news story. But the organization is not preparing for some of the employee issues that come with that. So the financial strain, some of the personal burden, some of the things that are creating organizational culture gaps. So these are wretched, quite frankly. And the fourth, arguably the ⁓ the worst, is actually ageism. So there's this silent saboteur, kind of the last of the isms.

That fuels age debt, which is discrimination against young, middle aged, and old in various ways that we seem to not care about. So, ⁓ demographic apocalypse, some call it, but just a tidal wave, demographic disruption. We have an experience issue, ⁓ we have pressure point of longevity, and we have this ageism issue.

John Niland (18:28)

And we have AI about to hit the decks in order to magnify all of the above, right? ⁓ so that's side A. And then side B was

Dan Pontefract (18:39)

Well, you flip over side B turns into what I call the experience dividend. So if we invest properly, ⁓ using this ⁓ debt to dividend metaphor and we make the right changes, then I believe there are kind of three key outputs that we need to be thinking about. So first, instead of career ladders, which we have used by the way since nineteen twenty four. So this is a hundred year problem.

We believe that all promotions, you know, ⁓ remuneration increases, et cetera, are dictated by you going up a ladder from junior to senior, senior to you know, senior, senior, and then executive. Well, what if we looked at a canvas? And the canvas model is you as a leader of a team and/or your leader of a unit or an HR organization. How might we be able to paint?

on a canvas with different colors and different brushes. So the metaphor here is maybe I could, you know, slow down. Maybe I'm, you know, an older worker in my 50s, 60s, or 70s, God forbid. And do I have to work 100%? Or might this organization allow me to work 80% or 60% or 50%? Might I put up my hand and say, you know, John, I've been thinking about my retirement date.

I know technically speaking, it's supposed to be 2027. But how about this? How about we say that my retirement day is 2030 and that I will ⁓ you know, delay the actual date in which I retire, but I we will prorate sort of that retirement over the period so that I go down to 80%, 60%, 40%, whatever. Multiple different ways of looking at the canvas, John, is is how we should be thinking about careers.

For young, middle-aged, and older workers. But we don't. We just say, hey, climb the ladder, have at her, good luck.

John Niland (20:32)

Yep. Yep.

Fall off the edge at retirement date. Yep.

Dan Pontefract (20:35)

It's exactly it. Like it's and so if you look at some of the age debt issues, the career ladder actually propagates the problems out of out of age debt side. It's like, well, yeah, that's actually one of the things that we used to do. So we have what I call 1980s thinking in a 2030 reality. And that's where rubber's gonna hit the road. So A, your canvas quickly, then the other two things, the wisdom wheel. So how might we

John Niland (20:54)

Mm.

Dan Pontefract (21:04)

Create an environment whereby, you know, we capture, share the knowledge that there is a mentoring program that happens as both top-down, but also reverse. So, you know, young people up and so forth, just like looking at wisdom as a way in which to be transferred much more equally and societally and socially. And then the third is the longevity lens. And that lens is the organization saying, well, what are we going to do with our culture to be more age inclusive and to eradicate said ageism? What are we going to do?

From a well-being perspective that helps, say, women suffering from menopause and different programs and things we can do to help them? How can we create new ergonomic design in the workplace that encourages older workers such that they might stay on and work with us, maybe part-time or full-time, but in a different capacity than just being so harsh in the labor practices that we have on the line or whatever the physical ⁓ labor might be? So

Lots of things to think about, but the three main kind of ideas career canvas, the wisdom wheel, and the longevity lens.

John Niland (22:07)

Fantastic. There'll be a link, by the way, to Dan's book in the show notes that goes with this episode. A final question, Dan. From the point of view of the individual, who either for their own reasons or for ⁓ for reasons thrust upon them ⁓ is ⁓ having to make a major change in career in their 50s, 60s, whenever, who is

who still feels the need to work very often for good solid financial reasons, not just for ⁓ vaguely emotional ones. what does the future hold? In the age of AI, in in this world where you know the future is work is gray, and yet many organizations are shunting out the gray as fast as they can. what's your view of where the opportunities are?

Dan Pontefract (22:46)

Hmm.

One of the things that I recommend, first of all, if you're in that sort of older worker age camp, is to sort of, you know, essentially look in the mirror and ask yourself, okay, so again, personal purpose. How do I want to be known? ⁓ do I want a turtle? ⁓ cave, you know, stick my head in the sand, and and not fight or rise up and to instill a sense of meaning and purpose.

And belonging in myself, or will will I, as I say, cradle essentially. But in that conversation with yourself, and ideally with loved ones and other confidants that you have, one of the things I'm recommending is where are your transferable skills, the ones that you did pick up over an incredible career of experience, of wisdom capturing, of projects, of ideas, all of that stuff. The

Sometimes when we get locked in, John, to I was an engineer for 30 years, I can only be an engineer, or I was an architect for 30 years, I can only be an architect, or I was an ex. There are such incredible transferable skills that you can take and say, you know what? I I know it says engineer here, I know it says architect, I know it says sales manager, whatever. But

Maybe I can pitch you, this organization that might have a few different holes from a talent perspective that are open. Let me let me help you see how I might be able to learn a few things in this role, but also what I can bring to you. And I think what's one of the things we've got to do as humans in this era, the 50 plus, is to remind ourselves that you're not just a job title. What you were isn't what you are.

And when we start thinking that way, and even though you might get turned down seventy times, that's that sense of purpose and meaning. Cause just like when you sell house, you know, there just need the one buyer. You just need the one organization and leader that gets it and says, All right, let I I trust ya. Let's let's make this work, John.

John Niland (25:09)

Right. Love that, Dan. What you were is not what you are. What a fantastic note to end on. Thanks very much for enjoy for joining me today ⁓ in such an inspiring and I would say thought-provoking ⁓ session on the future of work.

Dan Pontefract (25:25)

John, the pleasure really was all mine. Thank you for such incredibly thoughtful discourse. So much obliged.