Challenges of hierarchy, with Ashleigh Vilk

In this insightful interview, Ashleigh Vilk explores the challenges of hierarchy in educational institutions and in life. We discuss the need for external validation, the treadmill of work, self-worth, as well as practical ways to disconnect from chaos. Finally, Ashleigh has some wise words for teenagers about pursuing their dreams no matter how others may evaluate them.

Topics

• Hierarchy in education and its impact on self-esteem
• The role of external validation in professional and personal life
• Finding stability in chaos
• Ways to manage chaos and staying resilient
• The importance of relationships and self-awareness in turbulent times
• Teenagers: not taking dreams off the table

Chapters
00:00  The challenges of hierarchy
07:17  Specific challenges in education
10:36  Finding the right people
11:29  Personal observation: the treadmill of work
12:56  Waves of chaos crashing on the rocks
14:09  Finding stability in relationships
15:19  Disconnecting from chaos
20:55  Insights for teenagers

Keywords
self-worth, chaos, hierarchy, education, external validation, resilience, mental health, personal growth, Hong Kong, AI disruption

Guest Contact Details:
Ashleigh can be contacted via email on vilkashleigh@gmail.com or via https://selfworthacademy.com/ashleigh-vilk/ 

Thanks to Jacopo Lazzaretti for the intro/outro music:  https://jacopolazzaretti.bandcamp.com/album/secret-love

For all contact details (including our Associates) and useful self-worth resources, see www.SelfWorthAcademy.com

Transcript

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John Niland (00:00)

Welcome to Self-Worth in Times of Chaos. Today's guest is Ashleigh Vilk. Ashleigh is Head of Education at Self-Worth Academy. She is also a careers lead at an international school in Hong Kong. Welcome Ashleigh

Ashleigh Vilk (00:15)

Thanks, John.

John Niland (00:17)

What other job titles have I missed out on?

Ashleigh Vilk (00:20)

I have a company as well called Futureproof People, but it's based on very much similar things of what a careers lead does. Well, how can we face and break the waves of whatever's facing us in our future? yeah.

John Niland (00:32)

Well, we come to chaos in a moment, but what does a career lead do as a matter of interest in an international school?

Ashleigh Vilk (00:38)

So we effectively make sure that we have a globally ⁓ high standard program for students to make decisions based on what their interests are and their strengths are so that they can make those GCSE choices for the higher educational choices that are kind of rooted in their best interests rather than just kind of aimlessly going through school not knowing what they're meant to be doing in future.

John Niland (01:03)

Okay, so these are students between the ages of 16,

Ashleigh Vilk (01:08)

Yeah, so they start year seven, so they'll come to school by the 11th, 12th then up until year 13 when they graduate in they will be 18

John Niland (01:17)

Okay, so for people not in the British system, can you just translate that into chronological age so that we can all understand it?

Ashleigh Vilk (01:24)

I'm year 12, being 12 years old, aged two and 18 before you graduate.

John Niland (01:29)

12 to 18. Okay, quite a wide range then. Okay, so let's begin with chaos, we? This podcast is all about chaos, so we always start with the chaos. What nature of disruption? Would you like to discuss today?

Ashleigh Vilk (01:45)

Yeah, I really liked the invitation for this. I think I said to you tonight that I live in chaos all the time, feel like. I feel like nothing is ever quite still. And for me, it's an interesting time to be in the education system. There are some things that are very much changing fast. Like I know AI, obviously you've covered lots of stuff in AI, but also there are things that have not changed whatsoever. And some of that is the hierarchical nature.

of the education system and your place in it as a teacher. And that for me is really interesting with self-worth when you think about external validation. So that's the kind of chaotic system that I think we should dive into.

John Niland (02:29)

Okay,

so let's dive in. ⁓ What are the challenges of hierarchy?

Ashleigh Vilk (02:36)

Yeah. Well, I think for me, the hierarchical staff room issues are that you often have people maybe who are younger, less experienced, who have status roles or title roles, and they don't have experiences often outside of school. So sometimes when you work in a school and you've had other experiences in other industries, your idea of working, collaborating together is more about teams within teams.

Um, think we've all had bosses where we felt like actually we didn't really know we had a boss. You know, you felt like you were just working in a team in a school. tell you, John, you will know who thinks they are your boss because the language, the communication, the way that that relationship is curated is based on this person trying to keep their sense of status and therefore external validation high. But what triggers in you is.

Hang on a minute. Am I externally validated?

John Niland (03:38)

What

kind of language would ⁓ go with that?

Ashleigh Vilk (03:44)

So a lot of the language ⁓ that I experience when I see this kind of stuff happening ⁓ is dogmatic would be the word I would use. It's ⁓ less compassionate. It is very practical. It's about getting things done. And it misses the human part of kind of appreciating people.

seeing what they're doing well and getting that sense of value that you value them within your team. So very much you get this done because then it makes me look good.

John Niland (04:23)

So is it a command to get this done or is it, what would be an example of that rather dogmatic language?

Ashleigh Vilk (04:31)

So an example of dogmatic language, potentially that's very useful to give everybody an idea is you cannot disagree. So in companies, ideas come from lots of agreements, right? And people have different ideas and we know that differing ideas come normally to have great kind of innovative outfits. In schools, the dogmatic kind of command, you cannot then disagree. So even if you come from a place,

differing perspective where you could add some value from knowing something else. It's not really accepted.

John Niland (05:04)

And of course that's true in certain cultures as well. I'm conscious you're in Hong Kong. yeah. Okay. So what does that create? What kind of tension does that create for you?

Ashleigh Vilk (05:17)

So for me personally, it's a trap that I find myself in because I'm quite well versed in the self-worth ⁓ way of living. ⁓ Living from an expression of self-worth, as you put it, is what I try to do. So I'm very going well when that happens that I am of triggered and trapped into this kind of loop of hang on a minute, am I being valued? And it means you pivot away from looking and recognizing

how you have been valuable and what you've done as well, which you can internally kind of accept. You actually have the kind of an idea of what it is that you've managed to achieve. But if you're not receiving respect from someone else in a form that you think should be how they're showing you respect, then it can mean that you kind of, you're looking for external validation. You kind of get thirsty for someone else to say, actually well done. You've done a really good job.

John Niland (06:16)

Okay, so that can come across as a lack of appreciation for what you're doing. Anything else?

Ashleigh Vilk (06:31)

think sometimes it's when it's about claiming your intellectual property of integrity. It's not because you need a title or any applause to feel adequate, but you can highlight how you're valuable and your unique kind of approach to something, even if that's just your empathy or whether it is your innovation. But that matters far more than the external metrics and systems.

that will tell you that it's only more important if I have a title and you don't have a title. So how much someone thinks they're worth in the student, the education system, sorry, as a teacher tends to be connected to what title they have.

John Niland (07:14)

And of course you've mentioned education. It's an ecosystem that pretty much runs on external validation, doesn't it? I mean, the whole process of education is a process by which you get your qualifications and you get your progress and you get your sense of who you are through external validation. So I'm very conscious here. We're not just talking hierarchy in the sense of which.

There might be hierarchy in a company. We're talking about a hierarchy in a system where external validation is oxygen.

Ashleigh Vilk (07:50)

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's quite ironic, isn't it? Because teachers just act exactly the same as students. And there can be different schools where teachers are very much graded themselves on how good they are on their results. And so, it's kind of a catch-22 because you obviously don't want the children to be in that same kind of industrialized education system idea. ⁓

The staff are working on it as well. It's the same thing.

John Niland (08:22)

And the schools are working on it because you know schools get graded as well as staff being graded. mean grading and assessment is the daily bread of education. Interesting isn't it and challenging because the other aspect that you've touched on is the fact that we all need a little bit of it. You know we as human beings we value appreciation. We value knowing that our point of view is being

taking into consideration. We value discussion and involvement. We value the relationship aspect of all of that. We value credibility. We value all kinds of things, even with a full tank of self-worth. We will still want and need and value these things. And it can be tricky when we're not getting them.

Ashleigh Vilk (09:18)

Yeah, I think one of the things that's helped me out there is I think the original way that you and I met John was about being a hybrid professional and looking at other spheres of work where I do get that, ⁓ which actually probably compound how frustrated I get within the educational system. Because when you work as a coach and people are paying you for your opinion and then you go into a system where no one wants to hear your opinion, it can cause such a conflict inside you.

But that is how I have survived in the sense I have found other arenas and other areas where I am feeling valued. ⁓

John Niland (09:58)

Yeah. And it's interesting you mentioned ⁓ hybrid professional and the whole world of portfolio working because one of the challenges that people have when they move between portfolios is very often in the same week. We are moving between cultures as well. So you have to remember which culture am I in today? You know, am I in the hierarchical culture or the collaborative one or the challenging one?

and adapting our style to wherever we might be in that moment is a real...

Ashleigh Vilk (10:34)

Yeah, it is a challenge. And I think the thing that I have found in those situations as a life raft have been finding the right people who can translate those cultures to you. And having them be people who see you achieve the most, but understand your frustration and will help you see where you are obviously in the mix of what's going on and how.

perspective can change in order to oversee kind of a common frustration.

John Niland (11:07)

Now, you're a very astute observer of yourself in all of this ⁓ chaos and in all of this ⁓ moving between portfolios. What do you notice, and you're thoroughly well versed in self-worth, we don't have to ⁓ give each other a lecture on that for anyone who's listening. What do you notice about yourself ⁓ over your time in Hong Kong, over your time of operating in this hierarchical system?

Ashleigh Vilk (11:38)

yeah, I think I'm really far too hard on myself. despite intellectual understanding how to appreciate my achievements, I still do not live from a place of understanding my achievements. When I list them out, ⁓ I'm shocked about what I'm doing, but as I'm in it, in the chaos, doing things, being a mom.

with singing in bands, singing in choirs, doing the work here and there, having a company, all that stuff. It feels like nothing is ever enough. So that treadmill idea is what I think it feels like for me. And especially in Hong Kong, it was like everything went on triple speed because we lived in Italy a very slow life and coming out here, everything was like so fast.

You didn't have your support networks. You didn't have your friends. You had to find, you know, kind of your feet in new culture, which is something that takes a lot of energy. And then you're still trying to yourself. did, I fell into the trap of proving myself when I came here, because, know, I'm a new entity. therefore I wasn't a new person. So that has been very chaotic. That has meant, think, I mean, I use the analogy of waves, you know, in the way that I do breaking waves. I felt like I was being.

kind of crashed onto the shore several times. Like I'm washed up on another beach, trying to find my way through again. So yeah, I think it was a mad time and it did take its toll on me. But essentially having then the space, the energy to come back to those teachings, come back to those ideas has rooted me back in understanding, okay, actually we know what we're like, but we need to get back to the basics and the craft ourselves.

It's taken a couple of years, it's much more stabilized.

John Niland (13:33)

I'm very taken with that image of the waves crashing on the rocks. And I'm also very conscious that a lot of people listening to this, whether it's due to AI disruption or a family disruption or whatever other forms of chaos might be drawing people to this podcast, a lot of people will be nodding their heads at this point going, yeah, that's exactly where we are. We're being, you know, from one day to the next, we're just being dashed from one

from one set of rocks to the next. It really is a great metaphor for chaos. What helps you stay afloat when you are in that situation?

Ashleigh Vilk (14:12)

So if I'm really honest, it's my family and my daughters, it's my relationships. It's so crass to say love, John, but it is, it's all about love. Like if you have those relationships and those really important ties with people, everything else can become very, very insignificant. And that's one of the reasons I get annoyed at myself, but getting whipped up into some of these kind of like self-esteem frenzies because...

Really, if everything was to go to pieces, if you have those relationships, that's really what you need. So yeah, rather cheesily, I'm my kind of like, lifeboat is my family.

John Niland (14:52)

Yeah. Isn't it fascinating the number of times on this podcast series in which relationship is the first thing that comes up when people are going through chaos, that dependence that we have on a few other people to help us to survive. Anything else?

Ashleigh Vilk (15:16)

Music, you know I love music. So music has been something that I guess you could say is an interest or a hobby or something that I like, but it's been a great de-stressor. So finding something that helps me detach, I guess, from the chaos and join a group of people who are seeing us all together and there's no kind of...

It's all harmony, all trying to harmonize together. It really, it does do wonders actually. And I speak to some of the ladies in the choir that I sing in as well and we all feel the same. And yet we never have any conversations really. We practice for a couple of hours. We literally can't sing. Very polite between them, then we lead back to our lives. It's like a de-stress moment. Yeah.

John Niland (16:03)

Very interesting. the key word I heard there is it allows you to disconnect from the chaos.

Ashleigh Vilk (16:11)

Yeah. ⁓

John Niland (16:12)

What

else helps you out disconnect?

Ashleigh Vilk (16:15)

Yeah, I think, I think my brain is very busy. to disconnect, need to occupy it with something else. If that makes sense. recently, otherwise it would be more clear nature and doing something like walks and exercise, but I've had a knee surgery just recently, so I can't really do that. And I do feel a little bit like I'm missing that. But, ⁓ yeah, often it is, it is just trying to occupy myself with something else. If it's an unhealthy habit.

an ethics series or an Apple TV series that I dive into and can't get out of. Yeah.

John Niland (16:54)

Not to mention, hello social media. We can see how social media could become that very, you know, that go to place when people are feeling stressed and wishing to escape from chaos. And of course the algorithms know this, don't they? So disconnecting from the chaos seems to be an important part of this, whether it's through loving relationships, whether it's through

activities like singing, whether it's through walks in nature, knees permitting, but this ability to disconnect from it seems super important.

Ashleigh Vilk (17:35)

Yeah,

I think essentially that moves on to a very spiritual belief that none of it really matters. So all of the chaos that we see, and that seems such a superlative thing to say when the world is really going through it at the moment and people are losing their lives and really serious things are happening. To say that sounds.

like I'm being a little bit obtuse, what I mean to say is that we are kind of here having an experience as human beings, but very much as spirit, if you think about it like that. everything is chaos is what the Buddhism thinks, isn't it? Everything is suffering, but it's also just how you think about it. So if we accept that the things are happening, then

acceptance can lead very much to just it being. So the chaos becomes just being, if that makes sense.

John Niland (18:36)

And I suspect a lot of people will be rediscovering the sense of that in the years ahead. ⁓ One of the points made by Borana Taraj in this series, she works as a Gestalt therapist, ⁓ that she discovered herself in working through chaos was that everything passes, even the really awful moments. In her case, she talked about losing her mom.

the really awful moments, you know, are temporary. Yeah. And that's beginning to get a sense of, yeah, you know, the disruption of AI, big and all as it is, is temporary. The problems with hierarchy are temporary. The issues of clients or organizations not appreciating us are very temporary. Yeah. That is something that helps many people.

Ashleigh Vilk (19:34)

Yeah, I think she's hit on a really positive thing that's within our control is how we think about it. So if we think about something being temporary, then we're not so stressed about it, right? If we think about something going on forever, this is dealing with teenagers, I see this all the time. Whatever happens to a teenager, it's forever, right? It's happened in that moment, but it feels like this is not going to change. People are always going to think about me like this. There's this catastrophic idea that everything's going to remain the same. And they cannot.

connect, I think, their age easily with this idea of temporariness or things happening in passing. But as you age, can kind of, yeah, actually this, you know, this will be a blip in your kind of school record if you've got a bad grade, you know, you're going to move forward and never remember it type thing. So give it the right type of, you know, of weight in your life story.

John Niland (20:28)

Well, particularly helpful with external validation, right? Because all of these external, even when we get the positive self-evaluation, as we were saying on the way into this discussion, the positive benefits only last a few minutes. Just like if we could learn to make the negative consequences only last a few minutes as well, wouldn't that be great?

You mentioned your work with teenagers and I'm conscious of our time today, but as we come to a close, if you were encapsulating some of this discussion into some key insights that you'd like to pass on to teenagers who are themselves dealing with their own chaos and often multiple chaos at the same time, what would you say?

Ashleigh Vilk (21:18)

Um, that's a great opportunity. I some of the things I often say would be the best things to use here is it's worth it if you really care about it. Um, and tell them not to ever take a dream, take an idea off the table because they think they can't do it. I'm a big believer in promoting.

⁓ idea that Angela Duckworth has a grit, you know, you don't have to have a natural ability, but you have to want it. You to be able to be inconvenienced and work hard to get something. But if you want to do it, it's worth it. And I think lots of kids don't feel like that in school because the external validation is telling them that they're finding it hard or this isn't easy for you. And although I do believe in taking the path of

least resistance. I think you've got to look at least resistance on a longer term scale and you will find on a life line or a life, sorry, journey, doing things that other people need to do and not connect as you want to do. That resistance, it will happen later on and it's going to be at a bigger scale because you're suddenly going to realize you were doing things that you didn't really know.

So when I think of path of police resistance for teenagers, it's just know what you're good at and what you love and just follow that. But it's not, it seems easy. So make sure you speak to the adults in your life who can help you out because it's a disruptive world for everyone. We don't know what's coming in the future, but the one thing that you do have is a fundamental principle to self-worth academy is being able to pivot on your strengths.

So whatever comes at you, know what you're good at. And so if the world changes around you, you find a place where you can fit in.

John Niland (23:24)

I wish I'd heard that when I was a teenager because I just, what's going through my head as we close is all the things that I didn't pursue just because I didn't feel I was naturally good at them or because somebody told me I wasn't naturally good at them. I'm thinking of music particularly, you know, to this day I would love to be able to sight read music off the page. To this day I have not given up on that dream, but you know, even though I've made several attempts at it, I'm just not very good at it, but it's still a dream.

So I think what I'm taking from this session is don't take that off the table. Ashley, thank you very much for a really inspiring conversation.

Ashleigh Vilk (24:03)

Thank you, John. Thank you.