Working through a dilemma of identity, with Jacopo Lazzaretti

Summary

In this conversation, John Niland and Jacopo Lazzaratti explore the complexities of professional identity, the challenges of integrating multiple passions, and the impact of self-worth on performance. Jacopo shares his journey from musician to coach, discussing the dilemmas he faced and how he found clarity by embracing both aspects of his identity. They delve into the costs of self-esteem culture, particularly burnout, and the importance of focusing on internal expression rather than external validation. The discussion also highlights the Confident Performer program and the significance of reframing comparison as a source of inspiration rather than self-doubt.

Takeaways

• The confusion around professional identity often stems from existential questions.
• Integrating multiple passions can lead to a more fulfilling professional life.
• Self-worth allows for a more authentic expression in performance.
• Burnout is a significant cost of self-esteem culture.
• Focusing on internal expression can reduce stress and enhance performance.
• Coaching can help individuals unlock their potential through deep listening.
• Comparison can be reframed as a source of inspiration rather than self-doubt.
• Self-worth is essential for a healthy professional identity.
• Finding clarity in one's direction can alleviate internal conflict.
• The Confident Performer program emphasizes the importance of self-worth in overcoming performance anxiety.

Chapters

00:00  Navigating Professional Identity Chaos
02:53  The Dilemma of Dual Passions
05:47  Finding Clarity in Integration
08:55  The Impact of Self-Worth on Performance
11:54  The Costs of Self-Esteem Culture
14:53  Coaching and the Confident Performer Program

Keywords

self-worth, professional identity, coaching, performance anxiety, personal development, musician, dual passions, self-esteem culture, integration, comparison

Guest Contact Details:
Jacopo can be contacted by email on jacopo.lazz@gmail.com 

Thanks to Jacopo also for the intro/outro music, from his album Secret Love:  https://jacopolazzaretti.bandcamp.com/album/secret-love

For all contact details (including our Associates) and useful self-worth resources, see www.SelfWorthAcademy.com

Transcript

John Niland (00:00)

Welcome to Self-Work in Times of Chaos. And today we're going to be talking about all the chaos that can come from who we are in our work or professional identity, if you like. My guest today is Jacopo Lazzarati. Jacopo is a musician, he is a performer, he is a coach, and indeed that's the very thing we're going to be talking about, which is all the chaos around all of that. Welcome, Jacopo.

Jacopo Lazzaretti (00:26)

Hey John, thank you for having me here in this space and I'm really looking forward to speaking with you.

John Niland (00:32)

Well, let's dive in. What's the confusion around professional identity that haunted you for a while?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (00:41)

So I think the confusion came from one of those existential questions of who am I and then what do I do? And the kind of conflict became, the conflict came from identity, let's say dilemma or crisis between being a guitarist, a performer, teacher, but also wanting to be a coach from new experiences that I had. So let's say that up to my...

30s, I mean my 31s, I kind of labeled myself or thought of myself as a performer, as a musician. But then recently, a recent experience with the Self-Works Academy and also my life coaching and NLP practitioner training kind of made me shift of who I wanted to be. And that posed a question of, okay, what do I want to do? Who am I?

And so there was this kind of conflict of identity that I juggled with for a little bit.

John Niland (01:47)

Apart from the conflict in your head, how did that play out in your professional life?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (01:54)

Well, at the moment I'm still kind of figuring out what's the actual direction. And, but definitely there was this kind of, really dilemma of, on one hand, I've had so much experience in making music and performing and teaching. And, but that kind of area of my life has been, how can I say, there were

Two different things that play, which were the kind of external conditions of, you know, the experience that you had, the life, kind of the image that you have presented to other people. But also some internal drives of, yes, I still want to play the guitar. I still like to enjoy making music. I like also enjoy teaching. But then on the other side, there is the aspect of the mind, my fascination with the mind and also working with people in the

kind of context of coaching. And that really strikes me because if I, say, as I told you in a past conversation in my library, there are more books about the mind that there are about music. Not that I'm less interested in music, but I think that speaks a lot about what are my inner kind of drives of what I really like personally.

John Niland (03:20)

I'm curious as to what the conflict is there because any of us might be interested in multiple things. Somebody could be interested in sports, they could be interested in technology, they could be interested in music, they could be interested in poetry. So far so good. No problem there. Where's the conflict?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (03:44)

Probably the conflict came from me wanting to find clarity and direction. And because I was, let's say, so sure of one ⁓ part of me, when the new part came in, that was equally important. It was like a crisis type of thing of like, do I still go in that direction, which is the music, or do I do...

Do I go in the other direction? So there is that kind of fork on the road in which can we put ourselves in and no one else does. And then we feel as if we have to choose. there is that, that's the, conflict comes when there is the dilemma that we, that we face.

John Niland (04:32)

Right. So you experienced this as a dilemma. A performer or am I a coach or somebody who's into personal development? So how did you process the dilemma?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (04:49)

Well, I see whenever there is a dilemma, I've learned from, I'll say I learned from you from kind of watching the training in the Self-Worst Academy that usually there's always another option. So it's nice to bring in a trial dilemma. So the question is what's the other option? And sometimes the option is looking at those two things from a different perspective. And sometimes that different perspective for some people can.

mean including both in the same, so no, no option excludes the other, but actually we can create one new option that includes both. That's the, think that's the main shift that really happened of I don't have to be either. can be both in a new way that I get to define.

John Niland (05:42)

Yeah. And what is that third option for you?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (05:47)

So the third option is, that I think that's where the self-worth came in. And just to take a long-winded road and we can risk of approaching any identity, any professional identity choice as a condition that we need to meet. So whichever hat we put on, that hat might come with conditions.

And in my case, the conditions were present much more in the musical hat of I have to perform, I have to do this, I have to do that. And then if I don't do it, then that means something else. Whereas kind of approaching those two areas of my life from an internal expression of who I am and who I want to be and what I want to do. And also who I want to work with.

means kind of, I'd say connecting with myself and others in ways that I didn't think possible. And in that way, just so I get to explain why it's like from the performance angle is connecting with my wife, Carrie. And so there is that connection on stage and then there is the connection with the audience, which I really enjoy. And, but also when there is the coaching context is connecting with.

And people are actually being interested in who they are and what kind of problems they're facing and just helping them move forward. So I'd say that my, the big reframe has been kind of integrating both aspects and actually moving fully from an inner sense of expression rather than any condition that.

John Niland (07:36)

Yeah, you know, as always, two is a dilemma, three is a choice. a trilemma, I think you called it. I love that word. Very good. So let's move forward then to today a little bit. ⁓ You've explored the fork on the road. You've found another pathway that allows you to integrate.

think was the word you use, aspects of those to discard a lot of the external conditions a little bit and just choose the ones that you want to work with as part of your, I think you put it really well when you said an expression of yourself rather than conditions to be fulfilled. What does that look like today?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (08:25)

Well, to this day, think if it was still a condition, every action that I would take in either aspect, whether it was performing, recording, teaching, coaching, that means that you always need to prove to yourself and to others who you are. And that's risky because there's a lot of stress that can come from that. when things, when the person that you want to be and the people that you want to work with,

And the things that you do come from an expression that of all these things, then you can really focus on value and impact. So there is a, I say the ripple effect of this type of choice are greater because you're actually focusing outward. But basically by you coming at it from an inward, from an inner place and focusing outward, they are much more.

capable of bringing value to yourself and to others.

John Niland (09:28)

What would be an example, what would be a tangible example of that, Jacopo?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (09:34)

Well, it means that performing comes from like really focusing on the music and focusing on the connection that you create on stage and the connection that you can create with the audience in which so that actually they are, music is still at the center, but we're all in a circle around it. So we're all focused on that. And then we get to experience the value of making music and listening to music and sharing an experience altogether rather than having the

the performer on the stage or the performers on the stage, seen as the priest that is giving whatever sort of an absolution to the people. And then the audience just clapping. I mean, that's an experience that works and that works in the past, but just to really connect with one of the possibilities or one of the ways in which music can make us connect with each other. ⁓ And then in Morinam.

In a coaching, in a coaching setting, it's the case of finding, at least asking the right questions. But not to prove that, to prove to yourself that you're a good coach, that you can ask the right questions, but actually the outcome of these right questions is to unlock whatever door the person is stuck with. that's interesting because by you being in a state of deep listening,

and really being focused and be interested in who they are and where they are and where they want to be. Then you can really help them move forward. And that's the, what really struck with me for the coaching because I came from a teaching background in which, at least a student background in which the teacher would tell me in a way how to play. And then in return me as a teacher, would kind of guide the students of, think you should play like that, you should do this, you should do that. So they were also should, whereas the

coaching kind of reframing that there are lots of codes. So, and also it's very much like, what do you want to do? And then again, asking the, asking those questions. Yes. It's free. It's freeing and yes, it sounds like a lot of freedom.

John Niland (11:46)

a lot more freedom.

Back a step, isn't it extraordinary the effort and the energy that we as people often put into proving ourselves. You were describing the effort of a musician proving themselves on stage or wherever, but you know, I've seen that this isn't just confined to musicians. ⁓ It's equally true of people in technology, of lawyers, of accountants, of people in organizational life, of coaches.

who are, you know, very quick to describe qualifications and background and achievements, et cetera, in order to prove themselves. Isn't it phenomenal the energy that goes into this?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (12:39)

Well, I mean, that can come because we live, we still live in a self-esteem based kind of culture, which the more things you have, the more things you do, the better you are seen. you know, that's again, it's valid for some people and that's their experience. That's how they want to live. But we need to be aware of the costs of what that can bring. But, and remember that we can still choose.

We don't have to necessarily buy into this kind of, okay, I to all these qualifications. so people will see me as a great whatever I want to be. And we can actually choose, okay, what do I really like to do? And that's what came from you. So I really like to do this and why should I not do it? Why cannot do it?

John Niland (13:30)

Indeed. You mentioned the costs. In your experience or in your observation, what are the costs of self-esteem culture?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (13:41)

Well, the cost of, I think the highest cost of self-esteem culture is probably burnout. It's trying to keep up with too many things. And sometimes as self-employed, we do have to give up with many things because there are many parts of the business that we need to manage. There is the actual doing the business, so maybe working with clients, but then there is the upkeeping of the business, all the emails and marketing.

and promotion that if we don't do it, no one else is going to do. And that can, it's very easy to fall into that trap of I need to do this amount of videos or I to pause this amount of times. And so that's a very quick road to burnout.

John Niland (14:33)

Which many are traveling right now. Plus, of course, the never-ending expectations of ourselves in all of these situations. So let's fast forward a little bit to today. Tell me more about the work you and Kerry are currently doing.

Jacopo Lazzaretti (14:53)

So we are ⁓ working as coaches, especially through the Confident Performer program in which we basically

give our own take on performance anxiety and our own reframes and ⁓ also bring in the self-worth angle. there is, not only there are practical tools that people will learn about how to manage performance anxiety, but also I think, especially for us because we've experienced it in our life, is the change in perspective that comes when self-worth is part of who you are.

And yeah, so when you approach performance from a self-worth angle, then it actually, as you said before, we're freer to perform the way we want. So we don't have to prove. And again, it's still focusing outward. And rather than how well we're doing, how many right notes, right dynamics, colors we're doing.

John Niland (16:03)

⁓ In your experience, what difference has self-worth made to your own performance? And I mean musical performance, by the way.

Jacopo Lazzaretti (16:15)

To my own musical performance, The Self Worth, because I think I read The Self Worth Safari in 2024. I'm just thinking about the years. because it came from, and I had a long conversation and then I went online, typed Self Worth, kind of stumbled on Self Worth Safari. like, okay, let's buy it, let's read it. And so I read it I was like, okay, this is really interesting. And then.

We got to work together and this change came, one of the ripple effect of Approaching Life ⁓ with Self Worth is that I actually released my very first album, which came to be at a very, let's say later stage, but because I believe recording was actually a condition to ⁓ meet. So usually.

in the kind of classical music world. And this is, might not be everyone else experience, but it's my experience. That is the way I saw this experience was that recording was either a moment in which a teacher would say, yes, you're ready, let's record this. So again, you were reading from someone else's opinion or confirmation that you were ready. Or again, winning a competition, like a first prize or something that as part of the prize, you would have had to.

kind of record the CD. So I was kind of waiting for that and because that for whichever reason never came, then this recording was never going to come out. And then, so the self-worth came in and reframed the recording as an expression of the artistic self rather than a condition of being a musician. so yeah, and so there is the Secret Love album.

John Niland (18:08)

And we will put a link to that in the show notes for anyone who is listening. In fact, if anyone has been following the podcast so far, you've heard a quick little sample of Jacopo's playing at the beginning and the end of each episode. Thank you for that. I couldn't let you go without hearing you speak on a subject that I know you're very fluent, which is comparison with other people. I know this is something that you have talked about.

many times in the past about the effects of that, particularly on an artist, but I'm sure it doesn't just apply to artists. Can you say a few words about that?

Jacopo Lazzaretti (18:46)

So I'd say that probably comparing with, so comparing ourselves with other people, first of all is whenever we do it is very normal. Um, because probably it goes back to kind of when we were cavemen and we had to compare and there were all those needs and drives, you know, it's survival in one way or another. think it goes back to survival and the comparison.

Again, can come when there is the lack, there is a bit of low self-worth. And, and so you, whenever you look at other people, you always see them as maybe doing better than you or having a...

doing better than you, having better opportunities than you. But the problem with that is that because in that case you're focusing outward, you might not be really focusing on what you're actually doing and therefore you're not placing value on the things that you are doing. ⁓ whenever we approach comparison in that way, that's a very risky and dangerous road because it's just a vicious cycle of...

always seeing the other person in better and you put yourself at the very bottom of the pedestal. The way that I'm reframing comparison is that yes, I can look at people and I can look at people that are doing better, but not in order to diminish what they do, but actually to either model or take inspiration of the things that they're doing so that I can do even better.

can come when you've established that you're enough no matter what. Once you know that what you're doing and who you are is enough, then you can look at other people and use them as a, as a pull forward of all the things you can do. Because if someone can do it, then you can learn how to do it. And then you can do it well, rather than seeing like if they're doing, I'm not doing that. Therefore I am.

John Niland (20:52)

It's not a threat to my identity.

Fantastic. What a great note to end on, Jacopo. Thanks for joining me today. And again, there will be a link to Jacopo's album, Secret Love, in the show notes.

Jacopo Lazzaretti (21:09)

Thank you, John.