John Niland (00:00)
Welcome to Self-Worth in Times of Chaos. And speaking of chaos, many of us remember five years ago when COVID hit and brought chaos into many people's lives. One of those people was Caroline Sullivan. Caroline is joining me today in her current work. She is a career clarity coach working with women in transition at various times of their professional life. Welcome, Caroline.
Caroline Sullivan (00:26)
I enjoyed, it's lovely to see you today.
John Niland (00:29)
So tell us about COVID, what happened?
Caroline Sullivan (00:35)
I was an early adopter, so I fell ill in early March and when it was very chaotic and nobody knew what was going on. And what you saw on the telly was terrifying, what was going on in our house was terrifying, we were both ill and also told not to go near anybody or even go to the shop. And we weren't prepared, we didn't have anything we needed.
both very ill, thankfully got better, seemed to be getting better. And then my husband did get better. took ages, but he did. I didn't. And actually in some ways I got worse. And what I can say now is that my respiratory system, my nervous system, my digestive system were just torn apart by this virus. And I was very poorly and only
this year basically, I've still got hangovers from it, but I basically declare myself well again, but it's been, it's not been ⁓ a nice or easy thing to experience.
John Niland (01:45)
Of course today we know the term long COVID, but we didn't have that term at the beginning. It's like that old Monty Python story about the night going off to the hundred years war. He doesn't know it's going to be a hundred years war.
Caroline Sullivan (01:58)
That's so true and not knowing. also the doctors and I, it's for another conversation. It was really, really difficult and all the things, not being understood, being dismissed, being told I had anxiety, all sorts of things that made what was hard and difficult and harder and more difficult was all there. I got the Full Monty on, full, you know.
John Niland (02:27)
The full Monty Python! so how did it affect you? So obviously the physical effects are obvious, beyond the immediate effect on your body, what was the effect on your work life and your life generally?
Caroline Sullivan (02:30)
It's, yeah.
In terms of my life, generally I was just frightened and shattered. And in terms of work, I was in denial because I was very, very fit. So physically I sort of could function, but I got worse and worse and worse and I won't bore you with the details of it. But from the outside, sometimes it was hard for people to understand what the hell was going on on the inside.
So I tried to work and of course, as a freelancer, all work fell away, all work stopped immediately anyway. And we were kind of, it was lovely to be in a community of people that pulled together and we tried to do things. And I kept turning up for stuff and then was sort of more and more declining until I faced the reality that I was way too ill to work in any capacity. And that was just a shock as someone who's worked.
consistently for the last 30 odd years. and I had to tell my clients who, and again, I'm like, something is wrong with me. can't work. Couldn't really explain it. ⁓ felt like I to pull down and my income just, just stopped dead, which was really fine.
John Niland (04:01)
No. For freelancers, of course, it's a particular tsunami because, yes, you have the impact on revenue, but you also have that feeling of letting clients down, that loss of identity that you mentioned, the loss of who we are, particularly, of course, all of this going on when you don't yet know what it is.
Caroline Sullivan (04:22)
Yeah. Yeah. No, it was, ⁓ I think in terms of disruption, it was massively disruptive work, relationships, my relationship with myself were all tested and broken. So then some happen.
John Niland (04:45)
Well, let's talk about your relationship with yourself because this series is self-worth in times of chaos. What happened?
Caroline Sullivan (04:55)
I discovered a phenomenal fight.
is, that was a revelation. and probably part of the illness as well, but I fought really hard for myself. I did things that I know I'm embarrassed about. I reached out to people for help. was demanding. It's going to sound silly, but I started a street WhatsApp group and sort of marched into people's houses and said, we're doing this, we're doing that, which was slightly
unrecognizable. So it was a phenomenal, fierce fight in me and an endurance and a willingness to go through this sort of unique and individual lonely hell. I clearly had some form of resilience, which I'm still amazed at.
John Niland (05:59)
Yeah. Isn't it interesting? Because we often hear the other type of reaction, which is where somebody becomes resigned and talks about acceptance and sometimes even giving up and so on. And chaos can, of course, have that impact. But here you're talking about exactly the opposite. You're talking about discovering an inner fighter in you that comes out to play and starts organizing things and starts, I guess, believing that you're worth fighting for, right?
Caroline Sullivan (06:30)
My life was worth fighting for. My life was worth fighting for. I had amazing people supporting me from near and far.
John Niland (06:47)
So what effect did that have as you stepped into this life that's worth fighting for? What changes did it bring?
Caroline Sullivan (06:55)
Great.
Yeah, became, the changes were that it became my job. And ⁓ I essentially, ⁓ I mean, it's kind of strange and you have to laugh because otherwise you'll cry. But yeah, just this, person who was organized, determined.
And had, thank, there's a, there's a functional medicine person who basically saved my life. And we would have meetings that I would have agendas for and everything. And it's hard to explain because long COVID is a term that covers a lot of things. But if I just kind of reiterate nervous system, digestive system, respiratory system, torn apart by this.
There was some things I could function and I could function in short bursts. And that's what I did. I just had very short bursts of massive attack functioning. And then I would just keel over and not be able to do a thing for an extended amount of time after that. this fierce person was quite surprising.
John Niland (08:23)
Hmm. Had that ever surfaced before, or was this a new warrior that stepped into the limelight?
Caroline Sullivan (08:31)
Nah, she's, yeah, she's, she's been lurking.
John Niland (08:37)
Nothing in the shadows.
Caroline Sullivan (08:40)
He's done weird things like Tough Mudders and half marathons without any training. Yeah, a bit of a lunatic, but also there's this very soft, fluffy, gentle, passive side of me. And it's that contrast that was surprising.
John Niland (08:59)
Yeah. Fast forwarding a little bit to today and your current professional life. ⁓ Are there traces of that newfound warrior around?
Caroline Sullivan (09:12)
Most of it's gone. The disinhibited person was fascinating. That's gone. The zippy-dee-doo-dah, I'm so glad I'm alive, that lasted for about six months when I really began to know I was going to get better. But I think what's remained is, and it is someone with on topic
someone with a much higher sense of self-worth. And that was work that came during the illness at the tail end of it, where if I'm honest, John, I would say that self-worth had been missing massively in my life, despite all sorts of other work I'd done. It was, to coin a phrase, it was that little jigsaw piece, it was that missing there that I didn't even know was missing.
until an instinct drew me to do more work on it.
John Niland (10:13)
What does self-worth mean to you today?
Caroline Sullivan (10:19)
It means, and there's an author who gave me this idea, it's a loyal friend, a loyal companion who is there through thick and thin with you, there. You look in the mirror and you look ridiculous and you just go, ⁓ blessed. Love you anyway. That's what self-worth feels like to me.
John Niland (10:44)
Now obviously in your work today with other people going through transition and no doubt lots of disruption and chaos because hate is enough for everyone. ⁓ What are you noticing in the work that you do with others?
Caroline Sullivan (11:02)
that ⁓ I'm choosing my words carefully here. I think one, people, the women largely, I love men, but I seem to work mostly with women, is that there is that fight inside them that's gone. I'm going to work with someone. I'm going to do other things apart from just work with an individual. I know that
things do not feel right for me. And I've lost a huge sense of ⁓ who I am and what's important and why I matter. But I've got enough of it that I'm going to sort of have some courage and pursue it. And I think that that's what I've noticed is that something is off, badly off, and it's time to do something about it. And then
just having someone by their side.
John Niland (12:06)
You mentioned the fight inside. ⁓ Is that essential, do you think?
Caroline Sullivan (12:13)
I know. mean, I think it's either fight or a sense of loss or a sense. Yeah, I think that's quite profound. It's a sense of, I know there's more. I know there's either been more in the past or there's going to be more in the future. And I have a sense of knowing that, but I know I'm very disconnected from it.
I crave it. Craving is a word I try to describe how people are drawn to this work.
John Niland (12:46)
Wow. Wow. Do they know what it is that they're drawn to or is it just a vague sense that there is something better and I absolutely am determined to find it.
Caroline Sullivan (12:57)
I think it's that. I think it's what you said. And I also think it's the off feeling and it's the, this it? You know, I've had people come and sort of go, is this it? So I can't generalize because everybody comes as an individual, yeah, that sense that of loss, that sense of craving more.
John Niland (13:27)
Yeah. If you were to gaze into your crystal ball and ⁓ imagine or imagineer perhaps, ⁓ given the times of disruption and chaos we're currently in, ⁓ what kind of effects do you think that's going to have on people generally?
Caroline Sullivan (13:51)
I that I see, you've kind of said it already, there feels like it will either ignite a fighting spirit or it will ignite despair. that's not kind of linear in a way because you may go through despair and then come out fighting or you may fight, fight, fight, fight. then ⁓ I sincerely hope that we all.
And collectively, is what's important is, is collectively we'll have times of despair and we will have other times of going, come on, things have got to get, things need to be better than this. And I may be part of that.
John Niland (14:36)
Well, yeah, interesting both politically as well as personally, isn't it? Where that could go. And as you say, it's not linear. Tell us a bit more about your current work then. ⁓ Who are your current clients? What kind of challenges have they got? What kind of work do do as a career clarity coach? And perhaps to be clear, maybe explaining that term.
Caroline Sullivan (15:01)
I suppose one of the things I want to add around this self-worth that has ⁓ informed and improved my life is that I take this all so much more lightly, so the stakes are less high for me. So when I'm working with other people now, I was used to worry about winning the gig, being chosen.
all these sorts of things that I don't anymore. I think, can I be useful? Can I be helpful to you in some way? And if I can and it's right, then it works and happy days. But I guess I'm saying that first because this is about the clients that I work with. And what I see in the clients that I work with is that the world of work and working life is overwhelming. When you're a woman and you
Again, you know, I'm nervous about sort of making this black and white, but work is overwhelming and then requirements outside of work are demanding and it's very easy and possible to lose yourself within that. And I think often, especially if you're ambitious, if you do want a lot for yourself, if you do want to always do the best, ⁓ perfectionism is a topic I have studied.
deeply because I needed to. Anxiety is this topic I've studied deeply because I need to. And all of those are factors that come into play, but also that everybody else's needs and work and life outside of work are higher and more important than mine. And I've finally decided that this is a very difficult way to live.
long term. So that's a very broad generalization of what I noticed.
John Niland (17:00)
And obviously everybody's story will be different. ⁓ What are the typical shifts or changes that you bring about in your work with these overwhelmed and anxious and perfectionist people?
Caroline Sullivan (17:18)
⁓ There is an underlying dissatisfaction about what's happening in terms of their career. What I notice is a re-meeting, a re-engagement with themselves. I've just created a thing that kind of introduces you to who you are now, not the person you have been. That's a brave, courageous...
person who's sort of willing not to follow society's norms so much, not willing to ⁓ always sacrifice themselves in certain situations. So boundaries, which is talked about a lot, but stronger boundaries, a stronger sense of yes to this, no to that. And if I put myself at the heart of ⁓ my life,
and I look after my precious being, then I'm so much more useful to the people around me. And I think there's some form of relief and realization that that fear of being selfish sort of doesn't exist anymore and a whole re-engagement with how you engage with your life. Yeah, that's when it goes well.
John Niland (18:47)
For anyone who wants to know more, Caroline's details will be in the show notes. And I'm sure that what you've just spoken about will resonate with many people. A final question. If you were to send a message back to your former self in 2020, or just before 2020, let's say, before COVID hit, if you could send a message across time to your younger self?
How would it be?
Caroline Sullivan (19:19)
You'll be all right. It's not going to be easy, but you'll be all right. And Blimey, are you strong?
John Niland (19:27)
Wow. That's a good note to end on, isn't it? Caroline, thanks so much for joining me today.
Caroline Sullivan (19:31)
I think so.
Thank you, John. It's been lovely speaking with you. Thank you.
