John Niland (00:00)
Welcome to Self-Worth in Times of Chaos. Today I'm joined by Kate Andrews. Kate supports people going through transition. They may be professionals in later professional life or indeed students or people in early career. Kate herself has been through a few transitions and that's where we're going to start. Kate, welcome aboard. Would you like to fill us in on what's been going on over the past couple of years?
Kate Andrews (00:26)
Thanks, John. ⁓ It's an interesting word, isn't it? Chaos, because it means different things to different people. And for me, it means it's not necessarily about things going wrong. It could be that they're just not going to plan, which creates uncertainty and chaos in itself. My story is a very simple one, actually. had a very successful professional career working in lots of different types of businesses. ⁓
in lots of different types of sectors, working my way through and up to board positions. And the latter part of my career, I founded my own business, which went on to be successful actually, a business growth consultancy, helping businesses grow and understanding their challenges and most importantly, understanding their purpose to deliver ⁓ financial growth in most cases and stability.
What I didn't plan for in my journey was being diagnosed with an incurable illness, which by its very nature creates permanent uncertainty because it's so unpredictable. The disease was called lupus, which is, some people know, some people don't, but it's a chronic incurable autoimmune disease where the
body's immune system almost attacks itself mistakenly and it will attack healthy tissues, organs causing inflammation. So instead of your immune system fighting infections, it creates antibodies that damage anything from your skin to your kidneys, to your joints, to your heart, to your lung. So it can disrupt daily life as it pleases and it almost has a mind of its own.
John Niland (02:19)
Right?
Kate Andrews (02:20)
So I was diagnosed in 2020 and I continued to run the business for four or five years and the time came for me to sell. It was just an opportunity. I'm not saying I was ready, but certainly it was the opportunity I couldn't turn down. And all of a sudden I was presented with all the things that I've been running towards and most people do run towards in their career. So I had money in the bank. I had loads of free time and free, just freedom.
essentially, ⁓ which presented a different set of problems for me. So boredom, lack of purpose, ⁓ lack of identity. And the irony of that is that my gallop strength is gallop strength is something I've worked for for many, many years through
working with teams and mentoring and just business development. And I know my strengths intimately and my bottom, very, very bottom strength of the 34 is adaptability, which doesn't mean I can't adapt, but it just means that those people who are high in adaptability like to go with the flow and discover every day, one at a time, which couldn't be further from the truth for me. ⁓
I was stuck in a place that most people aspire to be in and found that I was in my own chaos. ⁓
John Niland (03:52)
Now that's interesting because what you describe of course would be some people's Nirvana. You know, you've got the time, you've got the money, you've got a lot of success behind you. Presumably you're past the point of proving yourself at this stage of the game. And then voila, you arrive in on Nirvana land and it's not at all what it's been cracked up to be.
Kate Andrews (04:18)
Correct. If I was no feelings of euphoria that you'd expect.
John Niland (04:23)
Yeah,
well let's go with the feelings for a moment. You've described boredom, you've described a sense of lack of purpose. What other feelings ⁓ accompanied this state?
Kate Andrews (04:34)
⁓ vulnerability was something that really came through very strongly for me. ⁓ because all of a sudden I'd gone from being at the top of my game, ⁓ to not being anywhere really. And you tend to with, especially as an entrepreneur, your work is your life. So the people that you are used to spending a lot of time with, it's not that they're no longer there, but you don't have a purpose to necessarily have to speak to them.
that much, so you lose ⁓ a sense of worth in some respects because all of a sudden you're not needed for all that advice or not needed for that meeting or not needed and you're watching everybody else go out to work and you're, and it's not that you're not busy because you can be busy, but it's, what am I doing this for? It was, it was difficult and coupled with
my lupus, which is so unpredictable. Some days you can be absolutely fine, some days you're not. that in itself, when you compound that on top, it's almost, do I start? Where do I start from? And I think what anchored me absolutely down were my values because whilst things can be changing so far around you, your values don't change.
And what I mean by that is it helps to make decisions. So some really, really difficult decisions I had to make about maintaining relationships with certain people or pulling away and letting go.
John Niland (06:16)
Hmm. Let's go there. What impact did it have on relationships?
Kate Andrews (06:28)
It did have an impact because I started to take a deeper look into what those relationships meant for me. And as part of that journey, ⁓ I listened to a really interesting podcast with Michelle Obama. If you remember, she didn't attend Donald Trump's inauguration and I was quite interested to understand why, but
She did a really interesting interview where she said that she had this very strong desire to prioritize her own wellbeing and make decisions that were right for her and not what was expected. some relationships in my world I had because it was what I expected or needed for the business, which sounds ⁓ quite mercenary, but I don't mean it literally as that, but...
Those relationships exist because of what you do and how you do it. And those people carry on.
what I learned very quickly was that I needed to really be disciplined about what I engaged with and who I engaged with. And what I have learned is that saying no is actually a skill. And you have to have courage to do that. So put me in a boardroom and presenting or
Any kind of ⁓ thing like that. I don't think twice about it, but actually saying no and the fear of letting someone down or the turmoil or the chaos that it creates me internally. Because that is one of my really strong values is I'm horrified to let anybody down for anything, even to my own detriment. So sometimes I would be so poorly, but I would still turn up to that meeting where actually I should have said, no, I can't do it. I'm not doing you a service on me.
And he goes by turning up.
John Niland (08:30)
So going back to your Michelle Obama quote, you really started prioritizing wellbeing and as a result was, were saying no to some people.
Kate Andrews (08:42)
It was saying no, but it was also not just to people. was to ⁓ not being attached to my phone. So I'm very disciplined now on how often I look at my phone and what I do respond to and what I engage with, with the outside world. So I don't do social media at all. I don't do LinkedIn. I've not touched it since the day I left. Well, lots of reasons, but.
My view is that if I do want to work, it will be predicated on the relationships that are really important to me. One of the things that I still maintain and I talk to students about today, the sort of early part of their career is that their network is the most important asset they will ever have. And what I've had to figure out at the other end of that spectrum, because we can all have big networks, but it's actually the quality of that network and the
the sentiment that sits behind the relationship. So there are some people within my work network that are with me on a personal level now, as we sit here today. They're somewhat I've let go of, but I know I could pick the phone up at any point. They've not got the time to be, they're busy people ⁓ and I don't want to be, you know, a pain and be just saying, I've got time for a coffee with actually no intent or no purpose.
I'm still trying to figure it all out. If I'm really honest, I've assumed a temporary identity and I'm working through whether I'm redefining my purpose or just adapting or just doing some, you know, somewhere in between. But what I do recognize is that I don't need to work an identity that doesn't define me or the relationships that I have with other human beings.
John Niland (10:32)
we've talked a fair bit about relationships, Kate. How did your relationship with yourself evolve through this period of change and transition?
Kate Andrews (10:43)
It still is because it's, it's the hardest bit of the puzzle. I'm trying to understand who you are. ⁓ but I've started to take a lot more time. ⁓ for people that know me, ⁓ I run around a hundred miles an hour and make decisions very quickly. And I'm always rushing somewhere or doing something, but I've actually slowed down, ⁓ considerably. And I've really started to understand.
my needs. So I've always worked in business and some of the work I've done in the past around your strengths, your values, your purpose. fact, that's some of the work that grew the business and that was the most successful. But in terms of as me as a person, understanding what are my needs, because if I understand them, I can help fulfill them. And I've never spent that time on myself. So I've been using
more reading Marshall Rosenberg's ⁓ books and nonviolent communication. The title actually doesn't do the book any justice, but exploring connection and the quality of those and understanding my needs. Cause if you can satisfy your needs, the feelings that generates are very positive. Whereas when you're not satisfying a need, that's when you feel your negatives. what I have learned is that, or I'm starting to learn, sorry, and understand is that I am enough.
And I don't have the next thing to achieve because that's one of my strengths. Top three strengths is achievement. And I don't need to have a job or achieve something to be enough. So for example, I've learned to play paddle, I've learned to play golf, I've started to achieve and had a go at all these things and I'm terrible at them all. And in the old case, it'd like, how do I get to be the best?
at this and win. But actually now it's enough to go, do you know what? I'm participating, I'm enjoying it meeting you people. It's enough.
John Niland (12:50)
Let me play devil's advocate for the moment. Into my head floats the voice of a younger listener to this podcast who goes, okay, you two, it's all very well for you to talk about slowing down and paying attention to your needs and playing paddle or whatever else you do in your afternoons. But I can't, I'm in the middle of chaos. I have family responsibility. I have work responsibility. My life is doing three things at a time on the go.
What would you say to them?
Kate Andrews (13:22)
I would say to take a step back and just understand a little bit more about yourself and create your own professional identity. Cause I think that is what you will always be known for. ⁓ and it's not, there's no golden bullet to go, how do I create that? There's certain owning parts, but it's about being curious and asking questions and an understanding.
⁓ what makes me tick. So understand your values. What's important to you.
John Niland (14:00)
And your needs by the sound of things. Yeah.
Kate Andrews (14:03)
Needs are a little bit more complicated and a little bit harder actually, because I'd actually never really looked at my own. thought it was enough to do values. I think when you're in chaos, I think it is good to look at your needs ⁓ and you can do that quite easily by reading about what a need is. In your book, in Marshall's book, there's some really basic, ⁓ and you know, because you get a gut reaction to something. I always say to people, when you're reading down a list of values,
You will read something that will have a visceral reaction and you'll just feel it in your stomach. And you know, that's important to you. There's no, it's not a test. It's just you feel, understand your strengths. ⁓ and trying to find your purpose. It's a, it's a little bit more complex, but what, what, what sometimes it's knowing what you don't like as much as what you do like, but if you know your values and your strengths, that will guide you.
And I've made a very, very difficult decision, a work decision recently. ⁓ It was almost a volunteer piece based on my values that I was going to stop that. ⁓ And that's why, that's what I'm saying is, but your values are your values and your principles, if you like, for putting it a simple term.
John Niland (15:22)
would be an example of one of your needs that really came into focus during this time of change in your life.
Kate Andrews (15:34)
I found that one of my needs was the need for clarity.
⁓ I can see that through my strengths as well in terms of what sits up and what sits down. going back to what I said earlier about, I'm not that fly by the seat. If you're packed for your holidays the night before, I'm the person that's packed two weeks before and got a list. So clarity is, is a need and that's why chaos can be quite easily created. ⁓ what I did to try and create that.
clarity was break it down into chunks and adapt and go, do you know what? It's okay not to make any decisions right now. Sometimes it's understanding what you don't want rather than what you do want. So when younger people come to me and go, I'm looking for a new job, but I don't know what I want to do. I always encourage them to go and look at all the jobs, every job. doing it with my own son. Look at all the jobs that are available. And you'll immediately read something through and go, that's not for me.
And that's your intrinsic subconscious mind and your values and your strengths going out. That's not really for me. And you do, and then you get, know, when you've read a job description in your work life and certainly in mine, thought, I'd love to do that job.
John Niland (16:54)
It's interesting, isn't it? Because chaos is hardest on the people who have a need for clarity and a need for structure. Those who are naturally unstructured probably feel quite comfortable in chaos. But many professionals in particular who, you know, for whom structured thinking is important, for whom having a plan and being strategic is important, chaos can actually be very tough emotionally as well as intellectually.
and financially on people who have those strengths. So let's get forward to what you do today, Kate. ⁓ I know that you're still work in progress, as you described earlier. And by the way, this podcast loves people who don't have it all worked out. So welcome aboard. What are some of the things you love to do today as opposed to in the past?
Kate Andrews (17:41)
Yeah.
One of the things I have spent time doing is lots of different types of volunteering and giving back. ⁓ And I don't do any work for money as it were, which is quite rewarding in itself. But it gives me space and freedom to still think at the same time as giving to others and imparting knowledge. And I think that's part of her.
who I am as a person in terms of there is a basic need there. I'm happy at my happiest when I'm helping others. And that can be on a business global strategy right through to somebody who's having a personal crisis and you're just lending an ear and saying nothing. ⁓ So I do enjoy, but again, I think the type of volunteering you do.
has to be aligned to your needs so that the other, the people or the person or the company that you're volunteering for gets the best out of you. There's no point turning up somewhere and being absolutely bored out of your brains for three hours. can't fulfill anything for anybody. And I've done lots of different types, believe it me, that's you know, but lots of different types of volunteering and all for good calls. So I do enjoy that. ⁓
I am now traveling a lot more. So I do spend time traveling and planning and thinking about what am I, what am going to do now and what I'm going to do next and what can we learn from that? What experience? And I want to create that for my children as well, those experiences, because I think that's really, really important because they're now going through that period that I'm talking to a lot of students, that sort of 17, 18, 19 phase. And I think.
the experience and the knowledge is quite important because they're so impressionable at this age.
John Niland (19:53)
Well, we can probably have a whole other conversation one day about the challenges that young people are facing in these times of chaos. we're not even going to take the lid off that one today. Kate, thanks so much for joining me and bringing your very personal experience of chaos to this podcast and the insights about, in particular, the one about slowing down. I think that's quite intriguing. We're in a world that's in a state of frenzy.
Kate Andrews (20:23)
I would say it's one of the most important things on that is actually going back to some good old fashioned communication. ⁓ What I find now is I'm having more human conversations than those with a device or through a device. And I think that's the advantage of slowing down is you learn a lot more and become aware and more focused on what's going on around you and being more present. So that's how, that I'd probably, my parting thought is ⁓ slow down.
communicate as a human being, with a human being, without a device and the insight will be fairly enlightening.
John Niland (21:03)
Well, we've been partly aided by technology today, but thank you so much for a very human conversation.
Kate Andrews (21:09)
As always, thank you, John.
